Thread: "de audiophile way" : Marantz' Ken Ishiwata Demonstrates DSD (Multi-Channel 5.1 Reference [Floating Control Bus System])

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Post by Wilhelm—Xu Zhong-Rui November 28, 2013 (1 of 137)
I'd intended, on Monday, to Post about how I'd done multi-channel by linking back to how I'd learnt it from Ken's approach. And while researching I'd found and instead Posted the "Ken's Den" interview, in which "[Hi-Fi Choice] takes an exclusive look behind the scenes at Marantz and Ken Ishiwata's incredible £100k listening room" :
/showthread/38857/110916/y#110916

Well, "instead" because I didn't find satisfactory links til now :
http://www.hificorner.be/?page=index&id=3075 is where I sourced the photos above (at Ken's den, presumably—with regards to products, a few years ago). Yet, the accompanying text is in Dutch, which I've read using http://translate.google.com/#auto/en/ in trying to understand...

A key Ken quote (that might delight you), in original Dutch (which Ken fluently speaks), concerning (Blu-ray) 'PCM versus DSD' :
"DSD kan de muziek beter volgen, de bandbreedte en dynamiek is ook veel groter. Het resultaat is een veel muzikalere weergave met een vanzelfsprekende natuurlijkheid en toegenomen oplossend vermogen."

Yet, I'd like a native Dutch speaker to translate the sentence that precedes :
"Je kan maar op één manier naar SACD muziek luisteren via meerdere kanalen: de audiophile way."

I think I know what was meant, but would like confirmation before elaborating.

Similarly, to not make this Post too long (and too much for you to consider), I'll talk about my own mulit-channel setup another time. But it has to do with the ending :
"Noot : alhoewel de setup grotendeels topapparatuur van Marantz vertegenwoordigt, drukte Ken me op het hart, dat het om het principe ging. Zo garandeerde hij een vergelijkbaar resultaat met 3 gelinkte integrated versterkers (bv. PM-11S1)."

As Ken had demonstrated, for example, in :
http://jordanacoustics.co.uk/blog/?p=626

Currently, Marantz PM-15S2 is the entry model for Floating Control Bus System.


Setup in above photo :
Marantz SC-7S1 Pre-amplifier (3 pieces)
Marantz MA9-S2 Mono Amplifier (5 pieces)
Marantz DV-12S2 Multi-Channel SACD/DVD player (1 piece)
Mordaunt Short Performance 6 speakers (5 pieces)
Mordaunt Short Performance 9 subwoofer (1 piece)

And, obviously, there was a SA-7S1 too.


How did that setup sound ? I invite you to go, translate Marco Lisi's report...



Thus, I didn't forget (and have thought of) your reply :
/showthread/39611/110678#110678

Post by The Seventh Taylor November 29, 2013 (2 of 137)
Wilhelm—Xu Zhong-Rui said:

Yet, I'd like a native Dutch speaker to translate the sentence that precedes :
"Je kan maar op één manier naar SACD muziek luisteren via meerdere kanalen: de audiophile way."

I think I know what was meant, but would like confirmation before elaborating.

"You can only listen to SACD music in one way via multiple channels: the audiophile way"

That's literally what is says. I'm wondering though: How can we be sure the author got the punctuation right, the way Ken meant it? What if he meant to say:

"You can only listen to SACD music in one way: via multiple channels -- the audiophile way"

Quite a difference, innit?

Post by tailspn November 29, 2013 (3 of 137)
Wilhelm—Xu Zhong-Rui said:


How did that setup sound ?

I attended a demo hosted by Ken of that system at Marantz in Eindhoven, in that room, last May with Jared Sacks. Ken had invested heavily in acoustic treatment, and the room was very neutral. The entire system was very clean, with an amazing amount of bass energy and dynamic range for its size. All-in-all, it was a very realistic sounding system without being overwhelming.

Post by The Seventh Taylor December 1, 2013 (4 of 137)
tailspn said:

> Ken had invested heavily in acoustic treatment
...
> it was a very realistic sounding system

Too bad acoustic realism and realism in the sense of being within reach (feasible to achieve) are negatively corellated...

I have never seen this listening room before yet, though I suspect I know where it is -- in the Marantz EMEA office in Eindhoven (Beemdstraat)?
I used to do SACD demos together with the Marantz guys in Eindhoven, when they were still part of Philips (at the time of SACD launch, around 2000). They were even in the same building as I, just on a different floor. I even got to meet Ken Ishiwata once.
Some of the people I know from back then may still be working there actually.

Interesting approach to multi-channel with all those massive mono-blocks. We used to do something similar in our demos with the Philips SACD1000 and the first Marantz SACD player (stereo -- the SACD1000-derived multichannel model wasn't ready at that time yet): Five Marantz mono blocks to drive a multi-channel set-up using B&W 803s plus some active B&W subwoofer. Lovely. I've been spoilt since then and can still only hope and aspire to achieve something like that for the home :-/

Post by hiredfox December 1, 2013 (5 of 137)
As fond as I am of Ken, he was pretty damned late to the Mch party and his early demos at the UK High End show at Whittlebury a year or two ago were risible. I do not see him as an authority on the subject in any way just because he has a lot of expensive Marantz kit at his disposal.

His basic tenet "It's the Music that Matters" still applies whether alluding to Stereo or Mch. Wise words do not make expertise.

Post by Kal Rubinson December 1, 2013 (6 of 137)
hiredfox said:

As fond as I am of Ken, he was pretty damned late to the Mch party and his early demos at the UK High End show at Whittlebury a year or two ago were risible. I do not see him as an authority on the subject in any way just because he has a lot of expensive Marantz kit at his disposal.

I certainly agree with you about Ken and recall discussions I had with Marantz about the lack of any multichannel equipment in their Reference Series. However, it is better than not to see them coming around to multichannel, even belatedly.

Post by tailspn December 1, 2013 (7 of 137)
The Seventh Taylor said:

Too bad acoustic realism and realism in the sense of being within reach (feasible to achieve) are negatively corellated...

I have never seen this listening room before yet, though I suspect I know where it is -- in the Marantz EMEA office in Eindhoven (Beemdstraat)?

I didn't mean to imply the room was acoustically realistic, I said it was neutral sounding. Ken spoke of the investment, and treatments done to the room in some detail. It was a sonically comfortable room, unlike mine, which purposely resembles an anechoic chamber.

Yes, on the ground floor as I remember. But there were no windows in the room, so just a guess from going up then down flights of stairs.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 December 1, 2013 (8 of 137)
The Seventh Taylor said:

"You can only listen to SACD music in one way via multiple channels: the audiophile way"

That's literally what is says. I'm wondering though: How can we be sure the author got the punctuation right, the way Ken meant it? What if he meant to say:

"You can only listen to SACD music in one way: via multiple channels -- the audiophile way"

Quite a difference, innit?

Without getting too deeply into the semantics here, and also noting that Ken's Marantz brand has a lot of high end product that is stereo only, I think his meaning is: Mch done right should be done the "audiophile way", whatever that means. But, I think he is intending to say that high audio quality standards should be applied to Mch for best and most enjoyable music listening, just as they are for stereo. I cannot disagree.

The "audiophile way" is not primarily Mch, since most audiophiles listen in stereo. That is in spite of the fact that Mch, done properly and at comparable levels of audio quality, offers more true to live performance realism than does stereo, at least to most sets of ears that have heard it both ways.

Post by hiredfox December 2, 2013 (9 of 137)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I think he is intending to say that high audio quality standards should be applied to Mch for best and most enjoyable music listening, just as they are for stereo. I cannot disagree.

The way you have expressed this exactly accords with my own philosophy on the subject. Mch is not in itself a substitute for very high quality sound reproduction in stereo even if it can create an entirely different and unusual sound stage perspective. This is especially true as at the moment - and with no wish to alienate many friends and colleagues on here as - a goodly proportion of Mch playback is delivered on what is in high-end hi fi terms mere run-of-the-mill mid-range boxes.

Kal and I debated this briefly a few years ago. What I will accept is that all things being equal from equipment and sound quality points of view, Mch probably will sound more convincing of the live performance than stereo. At that stage and notwithstanding the not inconsiderable considerations of space and budget these two worlds of sound should progress together. For now it means that mainstream Mch playback equipment has to up its game to best stereo standards even to be taken seriously.

Post by Kal Rubinson December 2, 2013 (10 of 137)
hiredfox said:

For now it means that mainstream Mch playback equipment has to up its game to best stereo standards even to be taken seriously.

Chicken and egg. When modern (discrete) mch first appeared, a number of high-end companies made processors, preamps and amps in but those efforts got killed by market disinterest. In order to get them into the game, there has to be more market interest and that can only result from the availability of suitable media and convincing demonstrations. File downloads might help the former but the latter is tough as most surviving retailers are not helping at all.

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