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Discussion: Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 3 & 8 - Vänskä

Posts: 38
Page: 1 2 3 4 next

Post by Ken_P May 17, 2006 (1 of 38)
I just received this disc from ArkivMusic, and my initial impression is that it's a fantastic follow-up to the first volume (symphonies 4 & 5). The sonics are every bit as good as that release, and the performances are wonderfully exciting. I actually prefer the 8th to "Eroica", and Vanska gets everything right in that amazing comic symphony. Have no fear about the 3rd, though, it also lives up to expectations!

Post by tream May 17, 2006 (2 of 38)
Ken_P said:

I just received this disc from ArkivMusic, and my initial impression is that it's a fantastic follow-up to the first volume (symphonies 4 & 5). The sonics are every bit as good as that release, and the performances are wonderfully exciting. I actually prefer the 8th to "Eroica", and Vanska gets everything right in that amazing comic symphony. Have no fear about the 3rd, though, it also lives up to expectations!

Thanks -I just put my order in.

Post by fafnir July 25, 2006 (3 of 38)
I purchased the Beethoven 4 & 5 from the same forces over a year ago and was extremely pleased with both the performance and the sound. Accordingly, I couldn't wait to obtain the 3 & 8 when it was released in May. Although I find the performances to be very fine, I have to report that the sound is a major disappointment, especially compared to the sound of 4 & 5. The following are, I believe, major problems:

The dynamic range is extraordinarily wide. So wide, if fact, that even at loud listening levels, the critical french horn solo that starts the recapitulation in the first movement (at 11:00) is virtually inaudible. The effect of this ultra wide dynamic range is unnatural and unmusical.

There is far too much reverberation, making the sound stage sound like an echo chamber. The recording of 4 & 5 is much more natural with an amount of reverb appropriate to a fine concert hall.

The overall sound has a unpleasant edge that makes it difficult to listen to. I am not a supercritical listener, but this recording had me wondering if there was a problem in my playback equipment. There isn't.

In short, something seems to have gone seriously awry in the recording process. I note that although the engineers in the two SACDs were the same, the mixing and mastering equipment were changed. Perhaps that is the source of the problem. Elsewhere, this SACD has garnered some excellent reviews, but with respect to the sound, I unfortunately cannot agree. This is a rare miss for Bis.

Post by synthy July 25, 2006 (4 of 38)
fafnir said:

In short, something seems to have gone seriously awry in the recording process. I note that although the engineers in the two SACDs were the same, the mixing and mastering equipment were changed. Perhaps that is the source of the problem. Elsewhere, this SACD has garnered some excellent reviews, but with respect to the sound, I unfortunately cannot agree. This is a rare miss for Bis.

Out of curiosity, was the mic preamp and converter the RME Octamic? Of the BIS discs I own, I noticed the sound became a little grainier and edgier on the discs where that equipment was used. It seemed to span various engineers/producers as well. Not really a big deal for me, but it had me wondering, mainly because I'm an amateur engineer myself. The reviews of the Octamic in the recording forums have been mixed to say the least.

I see Edvin posted a review of the new LSO/Haitnik disc...interesting comparisons. I already own the Masur set on Pentatone RQR...are these performances significantly different?

Post by bissie July 25, 2006 (5 of 38)
fafnir said:

I purchased the Beethoven 4 & 5 from the same forces over a year ago and was extremely pleased with both the performance and the sound. Accordingly, I couldn't wait to obtain the 3 & 8 when it was released in May. Although I find the performances to be very fine, I have to report that the sound is a major disappointment, especially compared to the sound of 4 & 5. The following are, I believe, major problems:

The dynamic range is extraordinarily wide. So wide, if fact, that even at loud listening levels, the critical french horn solo that starts the recapitulation in the first movement (at 11:00) is virtually inaudible. The effect of this ultra wide dynamic range is unnatural and unmusical.

There is far too much reverberation, making the sound stage sound like an echo chamber. The recording of 4 & 5 is much more natural with an amount of reverb appropriate to a fine concert hall.

The overall sound has a unpleasant edge that makes it difficult to listen to. I am not a supercritical listener, but this recording had me wondering if there was a problem in my playback equipment. There isn't.

In short, something seems to have gone seriously awry in the recording process. I note that although the engineers in the two SACDs were the same, the mixing and mastering equipment were changed. Perhaps that is the source of the problem. Elsewhere, this SACD has garnered some excellent reviews, but with respect to the sound, I unfortunately cannot agree. This is a rare miss for Bis.

Dear fafnir (nice Icelandic name, that),
I have forwarded the thread to the Balancing Engineers in the production. Maybe they'll answer.

As for me, I can answer only one point: the one about the dynamic range.

Yes, it is indeed extraordinarily wide. That's how Osmo Vänskä wants it. We just record what there is. We do NOT tamper with the original dynamics. It is neither unmusical nor, for certain, unnatural but, perhaps, works better in the hall for a live audience that can see as well as hear.

The rest I leave to my colleagues.

Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO, BIS Records

Post by Chris July 26, 2006 (6 of 38)
bissie said:

Dear fafnir (nice Icelandic name, that),
I have forwarded the thread to the Balancing Engineers in the production. Maybe they'll answer.

As for me, I can answer only one point: the one about the dynamic range.

Yes, it is indeed extraordinarily wide. That's how Osmo Vänskä wants it. We just record what there is. We do NOT tamper with the original dynamics. It is neither unmusical nor, for certain, unnatural but, perhaps, works better in the hall for a live audience that can see as well as hear.

The rest I leave to my colleagues.

Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO, BIS Records

I have not yet heard heard this particular recording. But from the many others which I have have vheard and reviewed here .I have to mention that one of the things I REALLY DO LIKE about recordings from BIS is the fact that, as you clearly state do NOT tamper with dynamics!
There are already far too many manipulated and severely compressed and grossly multimiked recordings made by the majors,so please keep up the good work.
All the best Chris

Post by Polly Nomial July 26, 2006 (7 of 38)
Chris said:

I have not yet heard heard this particular recording. But from the many others which I have have vheard and reviewed here .I have to mention that one of the things I REALLY DO LIKE about recordings from BIS is the fact that, as you clearly state do NOT tamper with dynamics!
There are already far too many manipulated and severely compressed and grossly multimiked recordings made by the majors,so please keep up the good work.
All the best Chris

Couldn't have put it better myself!

Post by fafnir July 26, 2006 (8 of 38)
Yes, it is indeed extraordinarily wide. That's how Osmo Vänskä wants it. We just record what there is. We do NOT tamper with the original dynamics. It is neither unmusical nor, for certain, unnatural but, perhaps, works better in the hall for a live audience that can see as well as hear.

The rest I leave to my colleagues.

Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO, BIS Records

Dear Robert,

As we all know, one of the many many benefits of SACD is its ability to capture the full dynamic range of a performance without compression, clipping, or other noticable distortion. The performer's dynamics should never be tampered with. One of the many great qualities of BIS is that it has retained the dynamic range consistantly, producing disc after disc that is total joy. When I am purchasing a BIS recording, I have had complete confidence that I will be obtaining a product that fully captures the performer's vision in state-of-the-art sound. The achievement of such consistant high quality is not surprising considering the philosophy of recording that you have eloquently espoused on this forum and your concern for real-world sound considerations. There is not a single BIS recording that I own, with the exception of this one, that I would not give five stars for both sound and performance.

I delayed entering my comments on the sound of this disc for many weeks because I wanted to play and replay it, comparing it to the excellent recording of the Beethoven 4 & 5. When I finally joined this discussion, it was with a heavy heart because my initial disappointment was confirmed. Incidentally, my wife smirked and chuckled when she read that I claimed that I wasn't being super critical.

My comment about the wide dynamic range being "unnatural and unmusical" is not meant to be a criticism of wide dynamic ranges in general or in all other BIS recordings that I have. My comment is really meant to refer to a passage in which a critical quiet solo seemingly was recorded off stage in a room with the door closed. I doubt that this was intent or Mr. Vanska or your engineers. In the context of what I perceive to be other sonic problems with this recording, I think that perhaps something went unintentionally wrong in the mixing or mastering process. By the way, this is the first time that problems have been associated with this french horn passage - in Toscanini's 1938 NBC Symphony recording, the notes were split between sides two and three by RCA, completely ruining its effect.

Finally, I want to thank you for your response and for turning my comments over to the BIS staff. Please keep up the good work, producing recordings that are the top of the line in the industry.

Brian

Post by Edvin July 26, 2006 (9 of 38)
As I said in my original review I also find some of the quiet passages to be too quiet. If you should adjust the volume using the horn motiv fafnir mentiones above you wouldn´t have any equipment left after the orchestra comes in. I would also think that it is not possible for a horn player to produce such quiet notes. I still think it is a great record though.
Thomas

Post by bissie July 26, 2006 (10 of 38)
fafnir said:


My comment about the wide dynamic range being "unnatural and unmusical" is not meant to be a criticism of wide dynamic ranges in general or in all other BIS recordings that I have. My comment is really meant to refer to a passage in which a critical quiet solo seemingly was recorded off stage in a room with the door closed. I doubt that this was intent or Mr. Vanska or your engineers. In the context of what I perceive to be other sonic problems with this recording, I think that perhaps something went unintentionally wrong in the mixing or mastering process. By the way, this is the first time that problems have been associated with this french horn passage - in Toscanini's 1938 NBC Symphony recording, the notes were split between sides two and three by RCA, completely ruining its effect.

Finally, I want to thank you for your response and for turning my comments over to the BIS staff. Please keep up the good work, producing recordings that are the top of the line in the industry.

Brian

Dear fafnir and edvin,

I have checked with one of the engineers, who is on holiday, just to make sure:

- yes, the hornist was sitting on stage
- yes, he was playing very quietly
- no, we haven't changed anything at all from that what came from the hornist or anyone else. Thus, at least, these passages are natural!

I cannot enter into a discussion on the reading of the score, since that is the prerogative of the conductor. Let it only be said that Osmo Vänskä is heading an incredibly superb orchestra that can actually make happen what he demands - and that's not easy!!!

I hope that either of the engineers will come back with answers to the other questions upon returning from their holidays.

Best - Robert

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