Thread: PENTATONE THREAD

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Post by ramesh May 19, 2005 (1 of 1170)
I have received this email from Mr Jean-Marie Geijsen at Polyhymnia, re upcoming Brahms piano quartet recordings. Strictly, it is response to my earlier Pentaman thread, but it is probably better if we start a generic Pentatone thread.

" On behalf of Pentatone I would like to respond....Piano trios and quartets are among the most difficult combinations of instruments to record from a balance point of view...Over the past 150 years or so, the piano has enormously improved regarding sound level and tonal balance...Therefore you can ask yourself, are the 'balance problems' in the Philips Classics Brahms piano quartets a result of the wrong recording approach or is this a good recording of what became an unnatural balance in the ensemble? I believe that the recording engineer should try to record the natural balance of an ensemble, and not change it too much. This was probably also the approach of the recording engineer when these recordings were made in the early seventies...During the recording sessions, you have to work together with the musicians and ask them to adjust their balance if necessary. It is of course always possible to multitrack such performances and artificially get them in balance, put some reverb on the string players and ready you are, but this has never been the Philips Classics approach, and is also not our way of recording.
As with all RQR releases up to now, we do not change or alter the original sound or balance when we make the transfer to DSD. Also for this release we can not, and will not change the balance. The musicians and the recording team during the recording have noticed these so-called balance problems. They have approved exactly this balance for release, and I cannot overrule their decision, and change the sound even if I would like to.
But since you mention this ensemble's balance problem, recently Pentatone released a new recording of the Beethoven piano trios op 1/2 and 70/1, played by the Storioni Trio...the musicians play the pieces in almost perfect balance. Listen carefully to the amount of room response on each instrument and you will hear that the piano sounds with a little more reverb than the violin and cello do. This helps to create a feel(ing) of depth or perspective in the recording; the piano is positioned behind the violin and cello, but this is also an indication that the piano is simply louder than the other two instruments.
For the recording, we chose a not too strong piano, and the piano player did a perfect job in keeping his volune down as much as possible. Also compare the Op 1 with the Op 70 and notice the way Beethoven changed his writing for the instruments over the years, especially the cello part.
What is interesting is the difference between the stereo and the surround version. In stereo it is very difficult to keep the high bass and the lower midrange clear. In the surround version this register is much clearer and transparent. Therefore you can more easily separate the cello from the the piano throughout the pieces in the surround version than you can in the stereo version."


Please note the near half price offer on all Pentatone stock at mdt.co.uk ; prestoclassics plus possibly some others for a limited time. Interesting that a small company like Pentatone offers customer feedback, whereas it is possibly easier to get a straight answer from Osama than it is from SONY-BMG on SACDs. I think we should reserve the moniker 'Osama's Bin Lisnin''for the executives on Sony-BMG music.

Post by ramesh July 6, 2005 (2 of 1170)
Dear Pentaman,
Delighted to hear, from the 'Gramophone reviews' thread, that you've found some of the Quartetto Italiano Beethoven recordings. They were always rather special. Perhaps of the modern stereo cycles, only the Vegh were as eloquent, but they were technically fallible compared to the Italiano.
You say you can't say yet even what year they can be released in SACD. Is this a licensing problem, or a cash flow one? On another thread, there's mention the Tokyo quartet playing the Rasumovskys are going to be released on SACD, but I'd far rather have the Italiano. ( I heard the Tokyo in recital a number of years ago play Op59/1. Very proficient, without being special, but it was with a previous line up of players )
The reason for this post is, if a number of us commit to buy, eg the Quartetto Italiano recordings, in advance; will this be of benefit to you in advancing the release date, as you are getting some immediate sales?
The wheel would be turning full circle, for it's shades of Walter Legge in the 30's commencing his Beethoven Society subscriptions to fund the Schnabel cycle.

Post by nickc July 6, 2005 (3 of 1170)
ramesh said:

Dear Pentaman,
Delighted to hear, from the 'Gramophone reviews' thread, that you've found some of the Quartetto Italiano Beethoven recordings. They were always rather special. Perhaps of the modern stereo cycles, only the Vegh were as eloquent, but they were technically fallible compared to the Italiano.
You say you can't say yet even what year they can be released in SACD. Is this a licensing problem, or a cash flow one? On another thread, there's mention the Tokyo quartet playing the Rasumovskys are going to be released on SACD, but I'd far rather have the Italiano. ( I heard the Tokyo in recital a number of years ago play Op59/1. Very proficient, without being special, but it was with a previous line up of players )
The reason for this post is, if a number of us commit to buy, eg the Quartetto Italiano recordings, in advance; will this be of benefit to you in advancing the release date, as you are getting some immediate sales?
The wheel would be turning full circle, for it's shades of Walter Legge in the 30's commencing his Beethoven Society subscriptions to fund the Schnabel cycle.

Hi Ramesh
as Opus 59 no.1 is my favourite chamber work I'd happily be in! I also have the complete Mozart string quartets the Italiano recorded between about 1966-1974 - hopefully some of them are in quad?
Cheers
Nick

Post by pentaman July 7, 2005 (4 of 1170)
ramesh said:

Dear Pentaman,
Delighted to hear, from the 'Gramophone reviews' thread, that you've found some of the Quartetto Italiano Beethoven recordings. They were always rather special. Perhaps of the modern stereo cycles, only the Vegh were as eloquent, but they were technically fallible compared to the Italiano.
You say you can't say yet even what year they can be released in SACD. Is this a licensing problem, or a cash flow one? On another thread, there's mention the Tokyo quartet playing the Rasumovskys are going to be released on SACD, but I'd far rather have the Italiano. ( I heard the Tokyo in recital a number of years ago play Op59/1. Very proficient, without being special, but it was with a previous line up of players )
The reason for this post is, if a number of us commit to buy, eg the Quartetto Italiano recordings, in advance; will this be of benefit to you in advancing the release date, as you are getting some immediate sales?
The wheel would be turning full circle, for it's shades of Walter Legge in the 30's commencing his Beethoven Society subscriptions to fund the Schnabel cycle.

Dear Ramesh,

We are very pleased to hear all the positive feedback on our chamber music release plans. The reason why we can not indicate yet when certain releases will take place is mainly a capacity problem and to some extent a financial problem. With the three of us(Pentamen), some free lancers and the Polyhymnia gang we are able to handle some 20-25 releases a year properly. We want to grow the number of new recordings in the same pace as the quads. The new recordings are consuming most of our time, but we love the work with young promising artists so much. In principle we have sufficient quad material for at least five years if we continue in the same pace. So bear with us. All the treasures will become available eventually.
As to the cost aspect, given the current size of the market we need to keep our overheads low. In three years time we have built a catalogue of some 80 items, set up world-wide distribution network, created a website etc. We have found a delicate balance between an affordable investment level and what we earn from sales. But we will react immediately with more new recordings and RQR releases in case the market increases considerably.

Best,Pentaman

Post by Dan Popp July 7, 2005 (5 of 1170)
ramesh said:

I have received this email from Mr Jean-Marie Geijsen at Polyhymnia,...

"...The musicians and the recording team during the recording have noticed these so-called balance problems. They have approved exactly this balance for release, and I cannot overrule their decision, and change the sound even if I would like to...."

This quote confirms what I have written several times on this forum: the sound you hear, good or bad as you may judge it, usually reflects the artist's vision first and foremost. It's silly to blame hirelings for the boss' decisions, and, with some exceptions like young pop acts, the boss is the artist.

Post by GROOT GELUID July 7, 2005 (6 of 1170)
Dan Popp said:

This quote confirms what I have written several times on this forum: the sound you hear, good or bad as you may judge it, usually reflects the artist's vision first and foremost. It's silly to blame hirelings for the boss' decisions, and, with some exceptions like young pop acts, the boss is the artist.

This quote is quoted incorrectly. Jean-Marie refers to the original recording as it was made in the 70ies and then released (and approved by the artists and team). The sound you hear then and now indeed should reflect the arist's vision (moreover the artists makes the sound, the team records it), but the recording team's input is very big as the choice of microphone technique and placement is theirs and their judgement is the starting point of the recording process. Then an interaction with the musicians takes place that can swing the 'balance' but usually improves the result that artists and team agree on together.

Such a process took place at the original recording sessions in the 70ies and for the remastering of these recordings, for the Pentatone RQR series, Jean-Marie stays fathfull to the judgement of balance and sound that was made at the time of the original recordings.

Post by mdt July 7, 2005 (7 of 1170)
GROOT GELUID said:



Such a process took place at the original recording sessions in the 70ies and for the remastering of these recordings, for the Pentatone RQR series, Jean-Marie stays fathfull to the judgement of balance and sound that was made at the time of the original recordings.

I very much agree with keeping the original balance, since it is above all an artistic decission and in a way part of a work of art.
I do see one point alltough were a remix could make sense. Namely with a multitrack ( main stereo pair plus spots) recording that could be remixed thereby correcting time differences between main and spot mikes, by doing so phase problems could be avoyded in a way not possible at the time of recording and one would spare one genaration of analog tape copy.
Of course, besides the time compensation, the new mix should be a "copy" of the original one.
Comb filtering seems to me a matter serious enough to consider such a remix, but i dont know wether it is possible to reconstruct original balances in a new mix.
Is there anything you can say about this idea ?

Post by tream July 7, 2005 (8 of 1170)
The current issue of Fanfare (July/August) arrived on my doorstep today and had an interesting article on Pentatone, authored by all people, Colin Anderson, who called me "rude and aggressive" when I pointed out his lack of understanding of high resolution sound and multichannel in a letter (also posted in this forum). While he carefully avoids comment about these topics in his article, it's clear he has tremendous respect for the accomplishments of Pentatone and their artist base. Lots of interesting releases on the way as well, especially featuring Julia Fischer.

I've been listening to the Colin Davis/Haydn symphonies Pentatone release this evening, and boy do I appreciate having this on SACD. Thanks, Pentaman, keep up the good work. (And can we get Boni back into the studio for a little more mid-period Haydn - I really like that release as well).

Post by GROOT GELUID July 8, 2005 (9 of 1170)
mdt said:

I very much agree with keeping the original balance, since it is above all an artistic decission and in a way part of a work of art.
I do see one point alltough were a remix could make sense. Namely with a multitrack ( main stereo pair plus spots) recording that could be remixed thereby correcting time differences between main and spot mikes, by doing so phase problems could be avoyded in a way not possible at the time of recording and one would spare one genaration of analog tape copy.
Of course, besides the time compensation, the new mix should be a "copy" of the original one.
Comb filtering seems to me a matter serious enough to consider such a remix, but i dont know wether it is possible to reconstruct original balances in a new mix.
Is there anything you can say about this idea ?

As far as I am aware the RQR re-masterings have been done with the original 4 track analog tapes. If there are multi track originals I agree that a new mixdown with the possibilities the current equipment offers is usefull. Using delays however is not always an improvement and really depends on the placement versus level of the main mikes and the supports. A delay that works in one direction can make things worse for sounds coming from another direction.

Post by mdt July 8, 2005 (10 of 1170)
GROOT GELUID said:

A delay that works in one direction can make things worse for sounds coming from another direction.

Silly, i should have thaught of that.I had in my mind sound going on a straight line from source to spot to main. Of course allready the spot can receive sounds from different directions (at different distance to the main) if it e.g.spotlights a entire section.
I guess this delay method will only work with very directional spots placed very close at that ?
That's proabably not ideal four acoustic instruments so maybe just use as few spots as possible, but as many as really necessary at the lowest possible level and go without delay ?
By the way, do digital frequency equalizers introduce phase problems or other negative effects, i am thinking about a digital EQ to equalize my system in the listening room (just fine tune and equalize L/R, acoustic room tuning allready done)?

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